Exploring Theatre with Deepak Dhamija: “I Don’t See a Reason to Complain Till the Time People are Putting Their Lives into Theatre”

Deepak Dhamija is one of the most promising theatre practitioners from Delhi who made a stunning mark with Shoelace Productions. In a very short span of Three and a half years, his theatre group, Shoelace Productions, has produced few original plays which certainly contributed in the rich theatre heritage of Delhi. Deepak is a Writer, who loves to Direct or vice-versa. He has a degree in Engineering and one in MBA from IIM Calcutta. But he chose to spend most interesting years of his life in and around a theatre auditorium.

I have personally worked very closely with Deepak, and always felt a journalistic conversation will make me understand the creative person in him a bit better. This conversation took place at a time when Deepak is preparing for his next production ‘Animal Song’, which is scheduled to be staged at Kamani Auditorium on May 24, 2014.

I am sharing an excerpt from a long conversation.

Deepak Dhamija

Nihal: A journey from corporate to theatre- it sounds interesting, but how does it feel like?

Deepak: Well, to be honest, it’s like having two relationships. With theatre it started more as a passionate love affair- nothing to be gained. I could never fathom why I started doing theatre except that I enjoy doing it. And I remember the day when I was totally bankrupt because of this affair. When my batch mates from IIM were in the race to be the first CEO from the batch, I had reached the other spectrum and became the first bankrupt guy from the batch. The real world is quite a bit different than silver screen. For me it was little difficult to borrow from friends or family and continue following my passion. So then I decided to get back to my ex-corporate world. And since then I am kinda maintaining a balance between both the relationships. Corporate world is quite dry, devoid of emotion, humor and crazy about numbers. I don’t approve of it and not really fond of spending time with her but then I am indebted to her as I am able to live with integrity because of her. When my passionate affair almost forced me to go hungry, corporate world ensured that I survived. Now let’s see how long I will be able to manage both the affairs.

Nihal: Your plays have interesting elements of absurdity. Where do you draw your inspiration from- any writer or incident?

Deepak: (Laughs) I have not written too many plays. Only 2 full lengths and 4 short plays. And none ever mentioned that my plays are absurd except my actors (smiles); and that too because they don’t look at the whole picture. So far, I try to showcase the life which I have come across so far. May be I lived an absurd life and never realised it.

I remember once I saw several people eating chole-kulche in a candle march against rape. And one guy was holding candle and kulche in one hand and was raising slogans while eating. It’s very real situation- the desire to have chole-kulche in middle of an intense struggle. Now when I tried to recreate in one of the workshops, someone mentioned it’s a very absurd thought. Same is the case with our play Majh- How do you decide which is more intense- Love for one’s Buffalo or love for one’s country? I am still not sure about most of things including the meaning of my existence. May be it reflects in the stories I have written.

Nihal: What is your take on the way theatre functions in Delhi- from quality of plays to the conditions of performing spaces?

Deepak: I am a young kid on the block (at least I would like to think so) and it would not be proper for me to comment about quality of production. There are different groups with different styles. I don’t see a reason to complain till the time people are putting their lives into it.

Though I wish there was a little more theatre friendly environment in the city. It’s almost like fighting a war to stage a play in any good auditorium. You need not only be creative enough to narrate a wonderful story but you also need to have deep pockets to book a decent auditorium. If you are able to do that, then comes the most difficult task of filling the auditorium! I think it’s more absurd than our plays that I have to pay 50-60k to book an auditorium for a night. The economics of theatre has pushed most of the full time theatre practitioner to workshops or teaching theatre in schools.

Nihal: Can you share a bit about the latest play you are working on?

Poster of Deepak’s latest offering: Animal Song

Deepak: In 2011, I experimented with a short play ‘Kutte’ (Dogs) in short and sweet Delhi, (10-minute theatre festival). The idea was to narrate a story with help of an actor and a musician. I was deviating from the standard path of actors also donning the hat of singers. It worked well and the play was nominated for 6 awards and finally bagged the best script award. Continuing on the same format, last year we staged 30 minute production ‘Majh’ (Buffalo), where love for country clashes with the love for buffalo. The play bagged good reviews but we staged it only once as I left on a personal journey. Now, I have added the 3rd story ‘Donkey’, which has 2 original compositions and 3 stories at the same time. We are exploring the concept of nation, religion along with concept of a Donkey.

The play has 5 original songs composed by quite a talented bunch of musicians. It is another interesting set of stories with a different style of narration. I find it difficult to write synopsis of the play compared to writing a play. I am not sure how to make it sound interesting. All that I can say is it is an experiment.

Nihal: What are the future plans of Shoelace Productions and Deepak Dhamija?

Deepak: Well, I was asked in a job interview way back, “What’s your long term plan?” And all that I could mutter was “In the long run, we are all dead”- still not sure if it was appropriate answer but it was definitely an honest reply at that moment. Can’t say about me but Shoelace was definitely born without a plan. And even today I don’t have any plan for Shoelace. If someone else has, I am not aware of it.

As of now it’s simple, when I meet a story which I feel like sharing with world, I just do it, provided I have money in the pocket to bear the expense. I think it brings immense joy to any storyteller when they share the story they want to share with the world. The day I will find a substitute activity for this joy, I will move on with or without shoelace (smiles).

This interview was first published in My Theatre Cafe on May 14, 2014

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What if Kafka and Nietzsche were great Facebook friends?

I wonder what if Nietzsche and Kafka were around. And what if they had their own Facebook profiles? Interestingly, what if they were friends with each other on Facebook? I guess their friends would have a great lesson on philosophy every day!

Imagine a day which starts with Kafka’s status update: “It is not necessary to accept everything as true, one must only accept it as necessary.” You wonder what this chap is trying to say. Then suddenly Nietzsche replies, “There are no facts, only interpretations”, and you reach the level of infinite amazement. The conversation does not stop there! Kafka has more to add. He replies back with, “People are sewn into their skins for life and cannot alter any of the seams, at least not with their own hands.” You, the mutual friend of Kafka and Nietzsche, gets a notification because by this time you have liked the update, not because you understood a word of it, but because you did not! You read this and feel more excited about this chap, whom you have never met in real life. You added him because you saw 43 mutual friends and a very interesting profile picture of “infinite circles”! You find no relevance in Kafka’s reply, but you feel he must have some reason to write this. You stalk his profile and see more updates and conversations with his FB friend Nietzsche.

“By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired” writes Kafka two days ago, to which Nietzsche replies, “Hey dude, you know what, he who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying.” Kafka likes the comment accompanied by a smiley! You are amazed to see how they are finding reasons to converse. You then rush to Nietzsche profile only to see his profile flooded with one liner, all with Kafka’s likes! He writes, “When marrying, ask yourself this question: Do you believe that you will be able to converse well with this person into your old age? Everything else in marriage is transitory.” Kafka gives a reply to this, “Start with what is right rather than what is acceptable.” You start doubting your marriage!

In one conversation between the two you come across an update by Nietzsche where he is talking about God. “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?” Like always, you are clueless! And you search for Kafka’s reply. He writes, “What is gayer than believing in a household god?” What does that even mean? Nothing! And you go back to your wall. You look at it, with finite eyes and think “A first sign of the beginning of understanding is the wish to die. But he who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

This article was first published in British Council blog on July 8, 2013

Permalink: http://blog.britishcouncil.org.in/?p=1580

Atul Kumar: ‘Noises Off’ will bring madness, energy, happiness, fun and laughter to Delhi

Atul Kumar and The Company Theatre need no introduction in contemporary Indian theatre. There is no blinking to the fact that Atul has been able to give a new definition to theatre in India with his extremely honest plays. Here Atul talks about his life and his upcoming shows of Noises Off in Delhi, which is scheduled on August 16, 17 and 18 at Kamani Auditorium.

Nihal: Delhi loved your play ‘Piya Behrupiya’. And believe me, we still talk about it with great enthusiasm. Now you are coming with your latest production ‘Noises Off’. What shall the Delhi Junta expect?

Atul: Same madness, energy, happiness, fun and laughter but without live music this time. It is a play within a play and invites the enthusiastic and curious eye to peep into backstage of a disastrous play put up by an even more disastrous ensemble played by our actors. It is a famous and typical English farce so expect loud and exaggerated acting styles and over the top humour.

Nihal: What lead you to select Noises Off, which is undoubtedly a great play and has been performed numerous times throughout the globe? As a director what is that you have played with?

A scene from Kumar’s Noises Off

Atul: I love the 2nd act when the set turns around and you see backstage business of a theatre company as they perform over the other side to the cyclorama. I like cheap farcical act constantly broken by the real actor rising forth and then a constant in and out- creating and breaking the illusion. And

my God it does have some of the funniest lines I have read-seen in theatre. Ever. We did this play in Mumbai in 2003. This is a revival after 10 years. With some old and some new cast members. Why a revival. Well, its just outright fun to do this play- each rehearsal day was a party and we would do it again and again- everyone in the team is on a high.

Nihal: You have stayed in Delhi for a long time. Can you share with us a bit about your relation with Delhi?

Atul: I was born here, studied here in school and university, fell in love here, had heart breaks here, got into fights here and walked the long roads in winters here, saw the 60s and then 70s and then 80s and even 90s in Delhi- so you can imagine I am in many ways a Delhite still. This is where it all started –this love story between me and theatre.

Nihal: What is your take on the theatre culture of Delhi?

Atul: It produces less and less theatre than in 70s, 80s and 90s but it still produces some of the best in the country. Delhi has theatre makers like Maya Rao, Anamika Haksar, Anuradha Kapoor, Amal Allana, Zuleikha Allana, Arjun Raina, Neel Chawdhary, Amitesh Grover and many more who are still making work that the entire country admires and looks forward to seeing. Audiences have been coming to see our shows of Hamlet, Lear, Piya, The Blue Mug in great numbers so I am assuming we have managed to create our own audience in Delhi- hope that is true and we can keep coming back. Delhi still has theatre poster culture with theatrewallahs going around all over Delhi and putting up posters in hundreds- such fun! Something that is not a culture in Mumbai Bangalore Chennai- at least not in such great numbers!

Nihal: As a recent trend, we have seen many comedies in our city. The newer production houses prefer performing comedies than any other genre. What is your take on this?

Atul: Everyone must do what they feel strongly about- it’s a free world- more so in the arts. So no complaints. We dabble in tragedies like Hamlet and Lear but also do 12th Night and Noises Off- then again within each of creations you will see a nice balance of not only tragedy and comedy but also of other sub-genres. We try to listen to our instinct and if we do comedies only for the next ten years does not mean we have discriminated another genre. Each to his own.

Nihal: How has been the journey with The Company Theatre?

Atul: This is our 20th anniversary year. The Company Theatre was formed in Delhi in 1993. This year we celebrate 20 solid years of all kinds of performances and shows all over India and abroad. We celebrate it in form of performances all over India including Chennai, Mumbai, Baroda, Delhi, Bangalore and finally at our newly built theatre residency in Kamshet, Maharashtra.

Get more info www.thecompanytheatre.net

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Company-Theatre-Workspace/190441537678004

This interview first appeared in My Theatre Cafe on August 7, 2013

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Habib Tanvir and His Message for Contemporary Theatre Practitioners

They say he was great. They say he gave new meaning to Indian Theatre. They say no one can be like him. But what did he think?

He thought that there can be many like him, or even better than him, if people work with a simple ingredient- honesty.

Habib Tanvir: A true artiste

Habib Tanvir defines theatre to a great extent in India. He will be remembered for many years to come for the magic he created on stage. His iconic play ‘Charandas Chor’ has been adopted and performed innumerous times. Same goes for ‘Agra Bazaar’ based on the life and poems of Nazir Akbarabadi, a lesser known 18th Century Urdu poet. Another play, ‘Bahadur Kalarin’, has a universal theme but has a setting of tribal India. His stories had global connotations while still retaining the local flavor; they discussed extremely complex behavior of humans but in the most simplistic manner possible on this planet- trait of a true genius.

In the memoirs he wrote in one of the editions of ‘Charandas Chor’ (2004, Vaani Prakashan) he shared many untold stories behind the play. Like a true story teller he not only presented stories in front of the readers but also puts his thoughts on various aspects of theatre, society and life, in a subtle manner. The memoirs are extremely important and is a must read for any theatre practitioner. These are not words and sentences but treasured documents which will be the guiding lights for generations to come.

‘Charandas Chor’: When local went global

In one of the sections of the memoir, he shared his experiences of the first tour to Europe with Naya Theatre, the theatre group he founded in the year 1959.

It was August 1982. It was Naya Theatre’s first tour to any foreign country. They were invited at the prestigious Edinburgh Theatre Festival. There were 52 plays from all over the globe, ‘Charands Chor’ being the only play from India. It was called ‘Charan-the Thief’ in English. Surprisingly- for Habib Tanvir and the entire group- it was awarded Fringe First Award at the festival- one of the most prestigious awards for theatre.

People asked Habib Tanvir how this could be possible? The auditorium hardly had 10-12 Indians, most of the people were from Europe and other countries! They did not know Hindi,Chattisgarhi was an alien language to them! He answered back, “I was watching the play from the lighting booth till interval, after which I went to perform my part in the play. I saw theChattisgarhi Folk artists were playing their characters as if they were acting in their village and assumed that every human understands the language of other human. This confidence and attitude allowed them to create magic. If this is not the reason then I do not know the reason.”

The play had created a wave of newness in England. Everybody wanted to see the play again and again. The newspapers were full with reviews and praise for the play.

Habib Tanvir also shared with the reader how the play was called to England for the performance. Peter Brook, renowned theatre and film icon, had recently visited India and in one of the interviews he gave to London Times he talked about the great work Naya Theatre was doing in Delhi. He was in India for his research on the epic ‘Mahabharata’. He had attended few rehearsal sessions of ‘Charandas Chor’ and ‘Lala Shohrat Rai’ (based on Moliere’s ‘Bourgeois Gentleman’) by Naya Theatre group members. This contributed in another wave of publicity for Habib Tanvir and Naya Theatre in England. David Gothard, the then Director of Riverside Studios- one of the most prestigious theatre houses in England- after reading the interview decided to call Naya Theatre to England.

Government of India used to finalize the play to participate in ‘Festival of India’ organized in England, which had nothing to do with Edinburgh Theatre Festival. The government officials had decided to send a play from NSD directed by Ebrahim Alkazi. Because David Gothard was keen on calling Naya Theatre, he did not consider the play selected by Government of India. Ebrahim Alkazi’s play had to participate in the London Commonwealth Theatre.

Habib Tanvir wrote, “Some 30-40 people used to go for the NSD’s play every day in an open auditorium which could accommodate 500 people. As a consequence not a single newspaper wrote anything about that play.” At this very time ‘Charandas Chor’ or ‘Charan-the Thief’ witnessed back to back houseful shows in England.

Elitist Theatre vs. Local Theatre

Habib Tanvir elaborates the discussion and gives a very insightful take on the entire episode on why Alkazi’s play was discarded by the English audiences. He wrote, “People may think why I am sharing this for the first time after so many years? One of the reasons is that I was never fond of ‘Elitist’ theatre which has an element of ‘imitation’ in it. Performing in England what you have learned from England! Why? Alkazi and me, both studied theatre at England. He was comfortable with English but not with Hindi, which was not his natural language. This was evident in his theatre as well. And I had come to the conclusion ages before that any theatre which tries to imitate other culture is not a true theatre- it is false. Theatre needs to be presented in such a way, using the local flavors form the society and culture one belongs to, that people from other parts of the world think “this is also a kind of theatre which needs to be explored”! We may like theatre from other countries- it may have all the ingredient of a great theatre- but the moment we try to imitate it, it will lose its magic. It means the theatre which has the ability to transcend local barriers and go global is also the same theatre which never loses the local flavor.”

He also wrote that he never shared this before because people in the same profession hesitate in speaking the truth about their friends and professional colleague who may not like criticism or, simply put, truth about them. This could also lead to many misunderstandings which he wanted to avoid that time, but years later it was the time to let the younger generation learn from the mistakes of older generation and create better plays.

Message for the Contemporary Theatre Practitioners

Habib Tanvir’s message holds extreme relevance for the theatre practitioners of the present generation. What Tanvir said was a result of what he experienced. He also said that there are good theatre practitioners in the present generation as well. We may have less ‘true theatre’, but the good thing is we are creating good plays which are original and relevant for the era in which we all are living.

Theatre, like any form of art- especially literature- is a reaction to the prevailing situations of a particular era. This reaction can be in form of absurdity, comedy, realistic- any genre for that matter. But if theatre practitioners react to the complexities of another era or culture or society, how will it be relevant in the long run? And more importantly how will they be able to react to complexities alien to them?

These are few questions Habib Tanvir puts in front of contemporary theatre practitioners who will not only entertain the present era but will present answers to the complex questions the future generations will have to understand our time.

We hope our answers are right, and only time can judge them.

This article was first published in MyTheatreCafe.com on May 25, 2013

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Meet Manav Kaul: Life is nothing but a journey of normalization of surprises!

I met Manav Kaul as a fan, inspired by his plays, stories and poems. Later I spent some time with him at various places. This interview was taken in mountains of Uttarakhand, during Sonapani Film Festival where Manav was one of the three featured filmmakers, along with Sriram Raghavan and K.U Mohanan. It was late in the evening. We were having a random conversation. I asked Manav if I can record our conversation. He allowed and here it is- an interaction with Manav Kaul.

Manav Kaul looks with a calm face during conversation
Photo: Pooja Sharma

Nihal: Manav, you have been into theatre for a long while. Now you are making films as well. What is the major difference you find in both the medium?

Manav: Major difference is of ‘History’. Theatre does not create history. It is a momentary art. Film creates history. You capture a frame, and that is history. Cinema is closer to life. You have to live life every day. You cannot a live a good day and that is over. You have to live everyday- morning to night-morning to night- evening. Living a good day is a tragedy, because you want to recreate it, just like we do it in theatre. And that is a trap. Even film is a trap. But that is captured. That is history. Now it is your problem how much you carry it on your shoulder. If you do not carry it as a baggage then you are a great person. If you carry it, then you are a very small person.

Nihal: What do you mean by baggage?

Manav: It is not a baby. It was teamwork, and it is over. It is history.

Everything you do has significance. It can give you happiness for a small period of time, and that is all- nothing more than that. That’s what life is. You liked one evening, maybe this one. Now you want to recreate it. You want everything similar- same bonfire, same songs, everything same. But that is not happiness. Happiness comes when it is most unexpected.

When are you surprised? You watch a play for the first time. Second time you will not be surprised. You will want to recreate the surprise in the third time, but for no use. I know that I do not know filmmaking. And this feeling is amazing. Our life is nothing but a journey of normalization of our surprises.

Nihal: I read one of you interviews few years back. The interviewer remarked that theatre is dying. You replied saying let it die. Why this approach?

Of course yaar. It must die as soon as possible. If it is dying let it die. I will kill it. Because if it will not die how will a space be created? It needs o die for something new to emerge. And most important: how many of us need theatre? No one needs theatre. We all are joking around. “We must save theatre”, “Theatre needs to survive”- non sense. Who goes to watch theatre? Those who are doing theatre shout aloud to save it. It is a business for them. If you make shoes you will like everybody to buy shoes. If people start buying slippers you will go mad.

Nihal: I was attracted towards your writing. I always felt you write different from other contemporaries. You have read a lot of literature. When did you start reading- College or school?

Manav: I never used to study. I started studying when I came to Bombay.

Nihal: When did you come to Mumbai?

Manav: 1998. One must study when he feels like studying. You start smoking not for the sake of smoking but to look cool. You consume alcohol to prove that you have grown up. You never like smoking or drinking. Similarly you start reading- to show that I also read. “Who is Chekhav! Who is Brecht! I will also see!”

Many people say you came to Mumbai to become an actor, but… . You know most wonderful people are those who changed themselves because they wanted to lead a great life. I admire those who still want to do something new at an age of 50 or 55. I do not see myself making films in the long run. Money is the most worthless thing I have come across. Since childhood we all have been scared by the society. Society sells LIC policies to us- if you do not save money you will have a bad life.

Nihal: What influenced you most- any particular incident or a person?

Manav: My laziness inspired me most. Every human is basically lazy, and wants to keep himself in a comfort zone. So I write, because I am a writer. But actually I sleep a lot. I do not want to do a ‘daily job’. I want a comfortable life.

Nihal: Didn’t Nirmal Verma influence you?

Manav: Of Course yaar. Your writing gets influenced by different people. Nirmal Verma, Vinod Kumar Shukl, Coetzee- they all influenced me. Camus influenced me most. I have read ‘Outsider’ numerous times.

Nihal: You are reading something right now?

Manav: I am reading Coetzee these days.

Nihal: You influenced many people in my university- D.U. Many colleges used to perform your plays. You watch your plays performed by others?

Manav: Never. People often call me to watch my own play. But I do not even watch my own directions. I feel so naked because I have written it, and I have also directed it. I watch the grand rehearsals. That is my show.

Any fiction is auto-biographical first. When you write a diary, you do nothing but lie. But when you are writing a story, you are honest.

Nihal: Why is it so?

Manav: Because when you write a diary, you are hero of the story. Everybody wants to be a hero. That is why fiction is more interesting. You do not even realize and you share your complexes, your dilemmas, et al. I am old now. I may have forgotten incidents, but the experiences come in my stories. I like ‘Mamtazbhai Patangwaale’.

You know the most interesting thing?

Nihal: What is it?

Manav: ‘Nobody knows anything’. I tell this to every youngster. Nobody knows anything. Everybody is essentially afraid. And when everybody is afraid, why shall we take any tension? Say whatever you feel like.

Nihal: You are a philosopher…

Manav: Arey, nothing like that! (Laughs). I feel mind can’t work with anything. But we need reasons to live. How will you live? You do a certain work once and spend entire life just accumulating reasons for it. I do the same.

Nihal: You justify yourself?

Manav: I will not call it ‘justify’. No one is asking you anything. You are looking for reasons to live, reasons to say that what I am doing is the best. And then you meet likeminded people who say ‘Yes, you are doing a great job.’

Acting is a lie. Stories are lie. Narration is a lie. Direction is a lie. I create a false life, and try to put truth in it. How is it possible? But then, one looks into his personal life and realizes, “how false is our own life?”

A bird is most amazing. It is enlightened. We all are fools, because we are looking for reasons to live.

Note: This interview is an English translation of the original interview in Hindi. The Hindi interview can be accessed here:http://nihalparashar.blogspot.in/2012/12/blog-post.html

This interview first appeared in MyTheatreCafe.com on May 11, 2013.

Permalink: http://www.mytheatrecafe.com/interview-manav-kaul/

Time for Cultural Emergency?

Victim, Kamal

Recent developments in Indian cultural scenario have raised a critical question: Have we reached so low a point where it is difficult for intellectual development of the society to take place? Ashis Nandy, a prominent public intellectual, shares a point of view which can be less popular, but the demand for legal action against him is uncalled for. Similarly the demand to ban ‘Vishwaroopam’, Kamal Hassan’s latest film, by the Muslim hardliners is one of the many examples to show the growing intolerance in the political class. Few days back two Pakistani theatre groups had to go back from India without performing because of the threat they received from Hindu right wing groups.We cannot forget how India's legendary artist M.F Hussain had to leave India and take refuge in other countries, leaving a tint in India's art scene. These examples do not speak much about the masses as they talk about the petty leaders. It is important to see leaders as a different entity from the people. 

When Akbaruddin Owaisi gives a hate speech, it must not be understood to be the public sentiment. Similarly the Thakre’s hate speech does not represent the entire Hindu community. But the way media, specially the social media, perceives these incidents are sad. Our collective conscience has made narrower lanes for us to walk. We see Pakistani state as same as the Pakistani public. Society is full of prejudices. Instead of fighting these prejudices, we have a political class which is working hard to reinforce them. 

Nandy’s remark may be less popular. But there is also no blinking to the fact that we have tried to understand him out of context in this case. Nandy has devoted his entire life in understanding the society. People can have different understanding of the same society. Sense of reality of a certain point of view is always different from another point of view. But this should not mean that a particular person should not say what he or she wants to say. Voltaire said something very important. He said, “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Alas, our political class has not read Voltaire. 

Nandy’s remark must be debated in the public space, as well as in private space. People who object should use strong words to condemn him, and fight with facts to prove him wrong. Similarly Vishwaroopam must be proved wrong with a better film by the people who feel it portrays Muslims in a bad light. Why in hell should our society be modelled around only political class? Why should the cultural representatives not come forward? Why only politicians should have the right to raise their voice above all? 

It is a myth that arts and culture belong only to a particular class. It is also a myth that only an intellectual can understand what another so called intellectual says. Everything boils down to people of the society. Each and every individual has the right and capability to become an intellectual. What we term as intellectual today has a very narrow definition. And a narrow definition cannot help in understanding larger dilemmas. It is important that the so called intellectuals come out of their self imposed protective shells and engage in the process of dialogues. But if they engage in dialogues, then any particular section of the society should not demand them to be arrested if they do not sound sweet to them. 

We never had the courage to demand arrest for the Thakreys, who very often and clearly talked about the communities they do not like. Because they belong to the political class they have a right to freedom of Speech, then why not Nandy? This logic is sad. We must avoid such equations. Society, fortunately, is not as simple as Mathematics where we engage in equations, where left hand side should be equal to the right hand side. Society is much more complicated, and it requires patience and calmness to understand the equations it carries. 

It is this complicated behaviour which asks us not to have a cultural emergency, but engage more in cultural debates for a better tomorrow.

Can we have a discussion, please?

मानव कॉल: एक बातचीत

कॉल साहब से पहली मुलाक़ात एक फैन की तरह हुई थी| फिर एक वर्कशॉप में एक्टिंग को लेकर उनके नज़रिए को समझने का मौका मिला| उसके बाद कई सारे तार जुड़ते गए और कुछ और वक्त साथ बिताया| ये ‘बातचीत’ सोनापानी में हुई थी, जिसे मैंने रिकॉर्ड कर लिया था (मानव को बता कर)| हम सोनापानी फिल्म फेस्टिवल में गए हुए थे जहाँ मानव की पहली फिल्म ‘हंसा’ दिखाई जाने वाली थी| एक शाम जब वक्त मिला तो मैं कई सारे सवाल के साथ मानव के साथ बैठा, और कुछ ऐसी बातें हुई जो बहुत दिलचस्प रहीं| 

जब दिल्ली विश्वविद्यालय में नाटक करता था तो मानव के बहुत नाटक देखे थे जो दूसरे कॉलेज के स्टूडेंट किया करते थे| उसके बाद मानव के खुद के भी नाटक देखे| सिर्फ नाटक देखना ही काफी नहीं है| नाटककार को भी जानना बहुत ज़रुरी है| ये बातचीत मेरे लिए खास इसलिए है क्योंकि ये एक ‘इंटरव्यू’ नहीं है| बस बातचीत है जो हमने देर रात की| शायद घंटे भर बात किया था हमने- बात क्या किया था- मानव बोल रहे थे और मैं सुन रहा था| बिना किसी विशेष काट-छांट के वो बातें आपके सामने प्रस्तुत हैं|

मानव कॉल (बातचीत के समय)
फोटो: पूजा शर्मा

निहाल : मानव सर, आप थियेटर करते हैं, और अब फिल्म बना रहे हैं| सबसे बड़ा अंतर क्या लगता है?

मानव : मेजर डिफरेंस हिस्ट्री का है| थियेटर हिस्ट्री नहीं बनाता है, वो मोमेंट्री आर्ट है| सिनेमा हिस्ट्री है| तुम कैपचर करते हो एक फ्रेम, वो हिस्ट्री हो जाता है| सिनेमा लाइफ के करीब है| जैसे लाइफ आपको रोज जीनी पड़ती है ना... एवरीडे... ऐसा नहीं है ना कि एक दिन अच्छा जी लिए तो हो गया... बस| लाइफ रोज जीनी पड़ती है... मोर्निंग टू नाईट- मोर्निंग टू नाईट... ईवनिंग| एक अच्छा दिन जीना दुखद हो जाता है हमारी लाइफ में| वो इसलिए दुखद हो जाता है क्योंकि आप उसको रीक्रिएट करना चाहते हो| जैसा थियेटर में आप करते हो, और उस ट्रैप में फँस जाते हो| फिल्म में है कि आप ट्रैप में फंसते हो, लेकिन वो कैपचर हो जाती है| वो हिस्ट्री है| उसके बाद वो आपकी समस्या हो जाती है कि आप उसको कितना कंधे पर लेकर चलते हो, कितना छोड़ देते हो| अगर छोड़ देते हो तो यू आर अ ग्रेट पर्सन| अगर कंधे पर लेकर चलते हो अपनी फिल्म, तो बहुत छोटे आदमी हो|

निहाल : कंधे पर लेकर चलते हो मतलब...

मानव : वो बेबी नहीं है ना| सबने मिलकर बनायी और वो खत्म हो गयी|

हर चीज़ जो आप करते हो उसका सिग्निफिकेंस होता है, वो आपको उस छोटे से समय के लिए खुशी देती है, और उतने में सब काम खत्म| उसके अलावा कोई काम नहीं है| ऐसी ही जिंदगी भी है| जैसे आपको एक इवनिंग बहुत अच्छी लगी... जैसे तुमने यहाँ तीन दिन बिताए, अब तुम फिर से आओगे सोनापानी और फिर से यही तीन दिन बिताना चाहोगे- फिर से बोनफायर लगे, फिर से हरप्रीत गाना गाये, फिर से वही मज़ा आये| वैसा कभी हो ही नहीं सकता| तुम्हें मज़ा कभी नहीं आएगा जब तुम क्रिएट करना चाहोगे| मज़ा हमेशा अनएक्सपेकटेड होता है| ‘आश्चर्य’ कब होता हो? जब तुम पहली बार प्ले में बैठते हो- आश्चर्य| दूसरी बार बैठते हो, नहीं होता आश्चर्य| तीसरी बार बैठते हो तो तुम पहला आश्चर्य नहीं जी सकते| तो हमारी हर चीज़ आदत के फॉरमुले में आ जाती है, जीने को मनडेन लाइफ में डाल देते हैं| अब जैसे कि इस बात को ध्यान से सोचो कि इंग्लैंड में मैच चल रहा है और हम यहाँ इंडिया में बैठे-बैठे लाइव देख रहे हैं- ये आश्चर्य है बहुत बड़ा, हमें आश्चर्य नहीं होता... वो आदत में आ गयी| हमारा जीवन जीना हमारे सारे आश्चर्यों का सामान्य होता जाना है| अब उसके बाद तुम आश्चर्य कहाँ ढूंढोगे? मेरे लिए इससे इंट्रेसटिंग बात कोई और नहीं है| जैसे मुझे एक्ज़क्टली पता है कि मुझे फिल्म मेकिंग नहीं पता है, और ये मेरे लिए अदभुत बात है| मेरे लिए इससे अच्छी कोई बात ही नहीं है कि मुझे पता ही नहीं है| जब अपनी फिल्म देखता हूँ तो आश्चर्य होता है| थियेटर में नहीं होता, क्योंकि थीयेटर मुझे अब थोड़ा पता है तो वो बोरिंग है| लाइफ में हर वो चीज़ जो पता चल जाती है, बोरिंग है|

निहाल : मैंने आपका सबसे पहले एक इंटरव्यू पढ़ा था “द हिंदू- मेट्रोप्लस” में| जिसने इंटरव्यू लिया उसने आपसे पूछा कि थियेटर मर रहा है तो आप क्या कहना चाहेंगे| आपने कहा कि मर रहा है तो मरने दो...

मानव : अफकोर्स... लेट इट डाई यार| तुरंत मारना चाहिए| अगर मर रहा है तो मैं मार दूँगा| अगर पता लगे कि मर रहा है तो आई विल किल इट| क्योंकि स्पेस क्रिएट होगी कैसे? जब तक स्पेस नहीं होगी, कोई नयी चीज़ उतरेगी कैसे? और सबसे महत्वपूर्ण बात है, उसकी ज़रूरत कितनी है? तुम्हें कितनी ज़रूरत है थियेटर की? हमें... किसी को ज़रूरत नहीं है| हम मजाक कर रहे हैं| हम एक-दूसरे को बेवकूफ बना रहे हैं| “हमें थियेटर की ज़रूरत है”, “थियेटर जिंदा रहना चाहिए”- बेकार! प्ले कौन जाकर देखता है? ये वो कहते हैं जो थियेटर कर रहे हैं| अगर आप जूते बना रहे होते तो आपको अच्छा लगता अगर सब जूते पहनते| अगर सब चप्पल पहनने लगते तो आप पागल हो जाते|

निहाल : मुझे जो सबसे अलग बात लगी वो ये कि आप एक अलग तरह का लिखते हैं| आपने लिट्रेचर पढ़ा है- बहित पढ़ा है| आपमें ये शौक आया कब? बचपन से, स्कूल में, कॉलेज में...

मानव : नहीं| मैं बिलकुल भी नहीं पढता था| पढ़ना चालू किया मैंने बम्बई में आ के...

निहाल : कब आ गए थे आप?

मानव : 98| पढ़ना तभी चाहिए जब आपको पढ़ने कि इच्छा हो| जैसे सिगरेट पीना होता है, पहले आप दिखाने के लिए पीते हो, दारु आप दिखाने के लिए पीते हो- कि आप बड़े हो गए हो| आपको कभी अच्छी नहीं लगती दारु| वैसे ही बस दिखाने के लिए सब पढ़ रहे होते हैं| “कौन है चेखव, कौन है ब्रेक्त| हम भी पढेंगे!”

बहुत लोग मुझे कहते हैं कि तुम आये तो थे बम्बई एक्टर बनने, पर...| सबसे अदभुत लोग वो हैं जो अपने आप को चेंज करते चले गए| जैसे लाइफ आई वैसे चेंज हो गए| क्योंकि वो बेस्ट लाइफ जीना चाहते हैं| वो लोग सबसे बड़े लोग होते हैं, मुझे ऐसा लगता है| जो अपने पचास- पचपन साल की उम्र में भी कुछ और करना चाहते हैं| और हमें एक लाइफ मिली है, और उस एक लाइफ में भी बस एक ही जिंदगी जीते रहे तो क्या घंटा जी रहे हैं| मुझे तो ये भी नहीं दिखता कि मैं फिल्में बना रहा हूँ| इसलिए मुझे पैसा सबसे बेवकूफी का काम लगता है| हमें बचपन से डराया गया है| अब कोई भी कहानी उठा लो... ग्रासहोपर की उठा लो- वो जो गर्मियों में बड़े मज़े से रहता है और ठण्ड में उसकी लग जाती है| फिर चींटी बोलती है कि तुमने ठण्ड के लिए कुछ बचाया नहीं तो तुम्हारी लग गयी| ये सब एल.आई.सी पोलिसी हैं| जिन्होंने ये सब कहानियाँ फैलाई हैं- हमको इतना डरा देते हैं ना कि फ्यूचर कि लग जाती है| आप सिर्फ डर कर जीते हो| मेरे हिसाब से मैं हूँ जितना, मुझे पता है कि मैं भूखा नहीं मर सकता| और क्या चाहिए मुझे?

मुझे लगता है कि सबसे रेडीक्युलस लाइफ कौन जी रहा है- अंबानी| वो इवेंचुअली पैसा मैनेज कर रहा है| और वो इतनी बड़ी रेस्पोंसिबिलिटी है क्योंकि आपके एक हज़ार बच्चे हैं| इससे बेकार लाइफ नहीं है कोई| हाँ, भले ही वो फ्लाईट में घूम रहा है, गरीबों को टुच्चे की नज़र से देख रहा है, पर उसकी पूरी लाइफ का आईडिया है कि उसके बाप ने इतना पैसा कमाया है और वो बस मैनेज कर रहा है| राजा और गुलाम का हिसाब है| गुलाम होना ही सबसे लिबरेटिंग काम है| गुलाम होना सबसे बड़ी आज़ादी है| राजा होना सबसे बेवकूफी का काम है, क्योंकि उसके ऊपर रेस्पोंसिबिलिटी है उन गुलामों की| वो अपनी जिंदगी गवाँ देगा उन गुलामों को ठीक करने में| गुलाम को पता है कि हमारी लाइफ तो ये हैंडल कर रहा है- हमें क्या करना है| तो गुलाम ज्यादा एनलाइटंड है और फ्रीडम में है, लेकिन हमको उल्टा लगता है| सोचो, उसके ऊपर रेस्पोंसिबिलिटी है इस बात की कि गुलामों को गुलामों की तरह बिहेव करवाना है| अगर ये लॉजिक समझ जाओगे ना तो चिल्ड आउट हो जाओगे| अब मुझे पैसा नहीं चाहिए, सिर्फ इस बात से ही मेरे लिए सारे दरवाज़े खुले हैं| तो मैं इतनी सारी चीज़ें करता हूँ जिनमे एक्चुअली बहुत पैसा लगता है| लेकिन मुझे नहीं चाहिए पैसा, मुझे ज़रूरत नहीं है, तो कोई लॉजिक मेरे लिए काम नहीं करता| अब कोई अमीर आदमी आता है तो वो मेरे लिए काम ही नहीं करता| वो मुझे बेवकूफ लगता है| मेरे को वो बिंदास आदमी सही लगता है जो कर जाता है कुछ| अब देखो मैं यहाँ सोनापानी में आकार रुकता हूँ, इतना ट्रैवेल करता हूँ, किसी के भी घर में आकार रुक जाता हूँ, तो ये काफी पैसा खर्च करने वाला काम है| न्यू योर्क हो आया तीन बार, कोरिया हो आया- एक पैसा नहीं था मेरे पास कभी| तो आप चीज़ों को दूसरे तरफ से देखो तो सब मिलकर बेवकूफ बना रहे हैं| अगर आप नहीं बनते तो लाइफ में ऐश करोगे|

निहाल : सबसे ज्यादा इन्फ्लुएंस आपको किसने किया? किसी इंसान ने, या किसी इन्सिडेंट ने?

सोनापानी विलेज रिसोर्ट, रात के वक्त
फोटो: पूजा शर्मा

मानव: दो कौड़ी की आलस ने सबसे ज्यादा इन्फ्लुएंस किया| आलस सबसे बड़ी चीज़ है| हर ह्यूमन बींग बेसिकली आलसी है, और वो अपने आपको सबसे ज्यादा कम्फर्ट में रखना चाहता है| तो मैं राइटिंग करता हूँ क्योंकि मैं रायटर हूँ| असल में मैं सोता हूँ खूब| मुझे डेली जॉब नहीं करना है| तो हर कोई कुछ ऐसा ढूँढता है जो ज़रा सा आराम दे| हम सभी यही कर रहे होते हैं ना!

निहाल : निर्मल वर्मा ने आपको इन्फ्लुएंस नहीं किया?

मानव : अफकोर्स यार| आपकी राइटिंग तो इन्फ्लुएंस होती ही है| निर्मल वर्मा, विनोद कुमार शुक्ल, कोएत्ज़ी... कामू ने मुझे सबसे ज्यादा इम्प्रेस किया है| ‘आउटसाइडर’ मैंने कई एक बार पढ़ी है| लेकिन क्या है ना कि हर पॉइंट ऑफ टाइम पर आपके फेवरेट रायटर बदलते रहते हैं|

निहाल : अभी भी कुछ पढते हैं?

मानव : फिलहाल कोएत्ज़ी को पढ़ रहा हूँ| लेकिन एक रायटर है बोर्खेज़- जोर्ज लुई बोर्खेज़- जब वो बहुत फेमस हुआ तभी वो अंधा हो गया था| मैंने उसे बहुत नहीं पढ़ा है, लेकिन उसकी रैनडम चीज़ें पढ़ी है| उसकी एक नॉन-फिक्शन किताब है... मैं उसको कहीं से भी खोलता रहता हूँ| उसने बहुत अच्छी बात लिखी थी कि हम पढते कब हैं? हम पढते तब हैं जब हम दूसरी बार पढ़ रहे होते हैं| हम पहली बार में कभी पढ़ते नहीं हैं| हम पहली बार में जानना चाहते हैं कि स्टोरी क्या है, एंड क्या है? तो जब हम दूसरी बार पढ़ते हैं तो एकचुअली पढ़ते हैं| वो खुद एक बहुत बड़ा लाइब्रेरियन था, तो उसने पता नहीं क्या नहीं पढ़ा सिवाय तोल्स्तोय के| उसको बड़ी-बड़ी बुक्स से बड़ी परेशानी होती थी, तो वो छोटी बुक्स पढता था| तो उसे जब बहुत पढ़ने का मन करता था तो वो उन किताबों को पढता था जिन्हें वो पढ़ चुका होता था| और मैं इस बात से बहुत ज्यादा आईडेनटिफाई करता हूँ| कोई- कोई किताब तो मैं बिल्कुल भी नहीं छोड़ता| कुछ किताब तो मैंने छ: -छ: बार खरीदी हैं| लोग ले जाते हैं तो देते नहीं हैं (हँसते हुए)| तो क्या है कि मैं पढ़ी हुई किताबें ज्यादा अच्छे से पढ़ता हूँ, और जो नहीं पढ़ी हुई किताब है उसे मैं पहली बार में ऐसे ही पढ़ जाता हूँ|

निहाल: हमारी युनिवरसिटी में तो आपने बहुत लोगों को इन्फ्लुएंस किया है|

मानव : हाँ, एंड आई हेट दिस...

पूजा (हमारी सिनेमैटोग्राफर दोस्त, जो वहाँ मौजूद थी) : कौन सी युनिवरसिटी?

निहाल : दिल्ली युनिवरसिटी| मैं थियेटर करता था डी.यू में| तो पहले ही साल से खूब सुनता था “मानव कॉल के नाटक- मानव कॉल के नाटक”| पहले साल शक्कर के पांच दाने देखा, दूसरे साल पीले स्कूटर वाला आदमी|

पूजा : अच्छा| सो आपने (मानव से) शक्कर के पाँच दाने डी.यू में किया था?

निहाल : इन्होंने नहीं किया था| इनके नाटक अलग अलग कॉलेज अडाप्ट करते थे| कभी किरोड़ी मल, कभी रामजस|

मानव : क्या है कि मैंने अपने खुद के नाटक दूसरों को इतना करते देखा है कि मैं अब तो खुद देखता नहीं| जो लोग मेरा नाटक करते हैं हमेशा बुलाते हैं कि आ जाओ, हमने आपका नाटक किया है देख लो| मैं अपना नाटक खुद नहीं देखता| मैंने अपना नाटक कभी औडिएंस में बैठ कर नहीं देखा|

पूजा : हाँ| आई वेंट टू वन ऑफ यौर प्लेज़| मुझे लगा कि लास्ट में आयेंगे| इंटरैक्ट करेंगे, बट यू डिन्ट|

मानव : आई नेवर...| मुझे लगता है ना... आई फील सो नेकेड| क्योंकि मैंने लिखा है, और मैंने डिरेक्ट किया है| मेरी जो ग्रैंड रिहर्सल होती है ना- दैट इज़ माई प्ले, विच आई वाँट टू सी| तो मैं क्या करता हूँ ना कि ग्रैंड रिहर्सल में खड़ा होकर, किताब लेकर देखता हूँ| जैसे ही वो खत्म होती है ना, डेन इट इज़ देयर प्ले| उसपर मेरा कोई हक नहीं है| फिर मैं सुनता हूँ थोड़ा बहुत खड़ा होकर, अगर लगता है कि चीज़ें गलत हो रही हैं तो चेंज कर देता हूँ- थोड़ी-बहुत चीज़ें| लेकिन आज तक मैंने अपना नाटक नहीं देखा| अपना काम देखना- आई एम लीस्ट इंटरेसटेड| आई हेट इट| हेट इट भी नहीं, क्योंकि कभी- कभी जब शक्कर के पाँच दाने देखता हूँ तो लगता है कि अरे कितना अच्छा लिख दिया, किसने लिख दिया! क्योंकि आप इतना मूव ऑन कर जाते हो| अब ‘हंसा’ (मानव की पहली फिल्म) तो मैं देख ही नहीं सकता| चाहे कुछ हो जाए मैं नहीं देख सकता| और आई फाइंड पथेटिक प्रोब्लेम्स जो किसी को पता नहीं हैं| आई कैन रिप अपार्ट द फिल्म, इतने प्रॉब्लम दिखते हैं मुझे| ऐसे प्लेज़ भी हैं| वैसे प्ले तो मैंने बहुत पैशन से लिखे हैं, पागलपन के साथ लिखा है| अब ये फिल्म (“तथागत”- मानव की दूसरी फिल्म) भी प्ले की तरह पागलपन के साथ लिखा है| दैट्स वाई आई एम एकसाईटेड| बिल्कुल दो दिन में लिख दी पूरी फिल्म|

मुझे लगता है इसके बाद ना आप इम्पोर्टेंट हो, ना आपने कुछ किया है| अगर मैं ये नाटक नहीं करता, तो कोई और आकर करता ये नाटक| देयर इज़ ओल्वेज़ अ प्लेस- अ वैक्यूम| आप वहाँ आते हो और आपको लगता है कि वहाँ बहुत सारी स्पेस है और आप काम करने लगते हो| बट वो वैक्यूम है| आप नहीं होगे तो कोई और होगा| और जो रिएकशन है वो मैं दे रहा हूँ| मैं नहीं रिएक्ट करता तो कोई और करता| जैसे, जब हिंदूइज्म में प्रॉब्लम आई तो बुद्धिज्म आ गया| उसमे प्रॉब्लम दिखी तो दूसरा आ गया| तो वो रिएक्शन है| जैसे एक घटिया हिंदी फिल्म में, जब थ्रिलर बनाते हैं लोग तो लगातार थ्रिलर ही बनता है| फिर लोग बोर हो जाते हैं| कॉमेडी आती है| फिर बोर होते हैं तो कुछ और आता है| तो ह्युमन माइंड गेट्स बोर्ड विथ एवरी थिंग, एंड जब कुछ नया आता है तो खुश हो जाता है|

निहाल: जब दीपक (धमीजा) आपसे पहली बार मिला था तो उससे पहले मेरे साथ था| वो बता रहा था कि आपसे मिलने जा रहा है| वो ‘मम्ताज़भाई पतंगवाले’ देखने गया था, और फिर शायद आपलोग हैबिटैट सेंटर पर ही मिले थे| वापस जब आया तो बताया कि क्या-क्या बात हुई| तो उसने आपसे पुछा कि आपको भी पतंग उड़ाने का शौक था क्या बचपन में? आपने बताया कि आप पतंगबाजी खूब करते थे| तो आप दोनों की बात हुई थी ऑटो-बायोग्राफिकल राइटिंग या फिक्शन के ऊपर, और नाटक में आप अपनी जिंदगी के बारे में कितनी आसानी से कह देते हैं|

मानव: मुझे कुछ याद नहीं है कि मैंने क्या कहा था| लेकिन उसे डाँटा ही था (हँसते हुए)| क्योंकि वो रोया था प्ले में और इमोशनल था प्ले को लेकर| और मेरे लिए वो एक प्रोडकशन है| तो आप फँसे होते हो मैनेजमेंट में....

निहाल: और ऐसे में कोई इमोशनल बात कर देता है...

मानव: आई रेस्पेक्ट दैट| क्रिटीसिज़्म बेटर लागत है, क्योंकि आप नाटक बेहतर कर सकते हो उससे|

लेकिन क्या है ना कि कोई भी फिक्शन पहले ऑटो बायोग्राफिकल है| आप डायरी लिखते हो तो आप एक झूठे आदमी होते हो| आपसे बड़ा झूठ कोई नहीं लिख रहा होता है| सब झूठ| अब जैसे तू निहाल है, और कहानी लिखे कि राजू नाम का एक आदमी सोनापानी गया, तो तू ज़्यादा ऑनेस्टी के साथ लिखेगा| लेकिन अगर तू लिखेगा कि निहाल सोनापानी गया तो...

निहाल: तो छुपाउँगा चीज़ें...

मानव, सोनापानी में खाना खाते हुए :)

मानव: छुपाएगा भी नहीं| फिर तो तू हीरो है फिल्म का| हर आदमी हीरो बनना चाहता है| तो फिक्शन ज़्यादा मजेदार चीज़ है| आप पता नहीं क्या-क्या कह जाते हो, क्या- क्या कोम्प्लेक्स होते हैं, प्रॉब्लम आपका, लाइफ आपकी- इतनी लथर-पथर के लाइफ जी होती है कि... अब मेरी भी ऐज हो गयी है| पता नहीं क्या- क्या जीया है| पता नहीं किसका रिएक्शन कहाँ निकल कर आता है- आपको पता नहीं चलता| और थोड़ी देर बाद तो आप भूल ही जाते हो सब कुछ कि कहाँ से क्या आया| तो मम्ताज़ भाई मुझे बड़ा अच्छा लगता है|

सबसे इंट्रेस्टिंग बात किसी को कुछ नहीं पता| मैं सब यंगस्टर लोग से कहता हूँ कि किसी को कुछ नहीं पता...

निहाल: मतलब? किसे नहीं पता?

मानव: किसी को नहीं पता| सब बेवकूफ बना रहे हैं| सबको लगता है कि इसको खूब पता है, उसको पता है| असल में हर आदमी डरा हुआ है| तो जब किसी को कुछ नहीं पता तो अपनी बात भी कहो| लोड क्या लेना? किसी को कुछ नहीं पता, हर आदमी बस बेवकूफ बना रहा है| मुझे किसी इंसान का बॉडी ऑफ वर्क अच्छा लग सकता है| जैसे विनोद कुमार शुक्ल मुझे बहुत अच्छे लगते हैं| लेकिन जब भी मैं उनसे बात करता हूँ मैं रिग्रेट ही करता हूँ कि मैंने उनसे बात क्यों की! मुझे पता है कि उन्हें अच्छा लगेगा, कभी- कभी वो फोन भी कर लेते हैं| पर प्रॉब्लम क्या है कि... अब मैं बहुत दिनों से अपने घर से दूर रहा हूँ| मेरे मन में मेरी माँ की इमेज बहुत बड़ी है| तो जब मैं अपनी माँ से मिलता हूँ तो वो वो माँ नहीं है जिसकी इमेज है मेरे मन में| वो छोटी है उससे| तो मैं हमेशा डिस्सपोइंट हो जाता हूँ- माँ तो बहुत बड़ी थी यार... माँ तो कुछ और थी... माँ के लिए तो मैंने पोएट्री लिखी थी| माँ के लिए तो पता नहीं मैंने क्या किया था... लेकिन ये माँ तो मंडेन- दैनिक बातों में फँसी हुई है| लेकिन ये ट्रूथ है| ये वो नहीं है जो आप सोचते हो| तो आपका माइंड हर चीज़ को ग्लोरीफाई कर देता है- फिल्म बना देता है उसकी| असल में वो तो कुछ और ही है| तो जब असल लाइफ जीते हो तो वो तो कुछ और ही है|

(कुछ देर की चुप्पी)

निहाल: फिलोस्फर आदमी हो यार...

मानव: (हँसते हुए) अरे, फिलोस्फर-विलोस्फेर कुछ नहीं है| ऐसा है आपको जो समझ में आता है..| मुझे समझ आता है कि माइंड कांट वर्क विथ एनीथिंग| लेकिन जीने के लिए रीजंस तो इकहट्टे करने पड़ते हैं| तुम कैसे जियोगे आगे? मान लो कि तुम एक चीज़ करते हो, तो पूरी लाइफ रीज़न ही बटोरते हो उसके लिए| मैं भी वही कर रहा हूँ|

निहाल: जस्टिफाई करते हैं अपने आपको...

मानव: जस्टिफाई भी नहीं, बस रीज़न बटोरते हैं| जस्टिफाई क्यों? कोई पूछ थोड़े ही रहा है तुमसे कि तू कर क्या क्या रहा है साले...

निहाल: अपने आप से...

मानव: नहीं| हम बस रीज़न उठा रहे होते हैं कि व्हाट आई एम डूइंग इज़ द बेस्ट| और उसी तरह के लोगों के बीच उठते बैठते हैं, तो वो कहते हैं कि तू सही कर रहा है!

तो आप तो रीज़न वाले आदमी ही| रीज़न ज़्यादा इकहट्टे कर लिए, तो जीना ज़्यादा अच्छा लगता है- यार मैं सही हूँ, वो बेवकूफ है, वो गलत जी रहा है| तो वो रीज़न है, उसमे फिलोसोफी कुछ नहीं होती| क्योंकि जब आप डिप्रेस्ड, डाउन या आउट होते हो तो कुछ मदद नहीं करती- कोई किताब, कोई फिलोसोफी- कुछ भी नहीं| इफ यू आर आउट-डाउन-खतम, यू आर आउट-डाउन-खतम! यू हैव टू डील विथ इट| और जब डील करके बाहर निकलते हो तो आपको लगता है कि अगर मैंने ऐसा किया होता तो सही होता| लेकिन उस समय तो आप सब चीज सह रहे होते हो|

अब जैसे मैं एक्साईटेड हूँ, मैं दूसरी फिल्म् बना रहा हूँ| दूसरी फिल्म बनाने में “हंसा” के बराबर प्रॉब्लम नहीं होगी क्योंकि लोग काम करना चाहते हैं| अब तीसरी फिल्म बनाऊंगा तो और सहायता मिलेगी लोगों से| लोग कहेंगे कि अरे ये बना लेता है| अगर पहली फिल्म मैं बहुत खराब बनाता तो लोग मेरी ले लेते| वही बात है कि अगर आप एक काम ठीक करते हो तो आपको लिबर्टी मिल जाती है जो वैसे नहीं मिलती|

अब एक्टिंग जो है ना वो झूठ है- सबसे बड़ा झूठ है| नरेट करना झूठ है| डायरेक्ट करना झूठ है| मैं एक झूठी लाइफ क्रीएट करता हूँ, जो लाइफ है नहीं, तो उसके अंदर कितना ट्रूथ घोल दूँगा? फिर अपनी लाइफ देखते हैं, तो लगता है अबे हम कितना झूठा जी भी रहे हैं|

चिड़िया सबसे अदभुत है, वो एनलाईटएंड है| हम बेवकूफ हैं क्योंकि हम रीज़न ढूँढ़ते हैं|

अच्छा पता है मुझे सबसे चिढ़ किस बात से होती है? ये क्वेस्चन-ऐन्सर सेसन से| (हम फिल्म फेस्टिवल में थे, और एक फिल्म खत्म हुई, जिसके बाद क्वेस्चन-ऐन्सर सेसन शुरू हुआ था- आवाज़ बाहर तक आ रही थी)| फिल्म हो या थियेटर| आप बहुत बेवकूफ हैं अगर आपको कुछ पसंद आता है और आप उसके बाद सवाल पूछ लेते हैं| तुम अपनी पूरी की पूरी इमैजिनेशन की वाट लगा देते हो| अरे, जो चीज़ अच्छी लगी है टेक दैट फील एंड गो| अब मुझे ये सबसे खराब काम लगता है, लेकिन मैं ये कैसे बताऊँ कि ये खराब काम है (हँसता है)! अब “हंसा” के बाद मुझसे कोई सवाल पूछता है तो मैं झूठ ही बोल रहा होता हूँ| मैं क्या कर रहा था- मुझे खुद नहीं पता, मैं तो डरा हुआ था| मतलब आपको जानना क्या है? आपको कुछ नहीं जानना फिर भी आप सवाल पूछते हो|

पूजा: लेकिन कभी-कभी अच्छी कहानियाँ भी जानने को मिलती हैं ना|

मानव: हाँ, वो भी है| दैट्स अनदर थिंग| (शाम का नाश्ता आ जाता है- चिकन| मानव को चिकन पसंद है पूजा नॉन-वेज नहीं खाती) चिकन खा लो वरना बाद में जब स्वर्ग-और नर्क के लाइन में लगोगे तो इस बात पर आठ कोड़े ज़्यादा पड़ेंगे|

अरे, बचपन में मैं एक आश्रम जाता था –ब्रह्मकुमारी आश्रम| इट इज़ अ रिलिजन| तो वहाँ थ्योरी ये है कि हर आदमी आपका भाई है, और हर औरत आपकी बहन| अरे! इस बात से ही....| अच्छा, इसके बाद हर वेडनेसडे वो खूब नाश्ता देते थे- केले, फल- कुछ बकवास करते थे वो, उसके बाद| तो मैं उस दिन खूब जाता था वहाँ| और वहाँ पर कुछ फोटोग्राफ लगा होता था| पहले नर्क के फोटो, कि अगर आप शादी कर लोगे तो नर्क जाओगे, कड़ाही में उबलोगे| लेकिन अगर आप नहीं करोगे तो आप स्वर्ग जाओगे- वहाँ लड़कियां होंगी, हिरण होंगे, शेर के साथ आप डांस करोगे| तो मैं कभी ये लॅाजिक लगा ही नहीं पाया कि अगर स्वर्ग में लड़कियां मिलनी ही है तो....|

उस समय मैं नाश्ते के चक्कर में गया था, लेकिन अब सोचता हूँ कि कितना गया हूँ मैं ब्रह्मकुमारी आश्रम|

निहाल: होशंगाबाद में?

मानव: हाँ, मेरे घर से थोड़ा सा दूर|

निहाल: आपका जन्म होशंगाबाद हुआ था?

मानव: ना| कश्मीर में|

निहाल: आप रहे वहाँ पर?

मानव: हाँ, बचपन वहीँ बीता- मतलब बहुत छोटा बचपन| बाकी होशंगाबाद|

निहाल: और होशंगाबाद के बाद?

मानव: उसके बाद भोपाल| फिर थियेटर चालू हो गया| थियेटर, स्विमिंग|

निहाल: स्विमिंग भी भोपाल में शुरू किया?

मानव: स्विमिंग के कारण ही तो भोपाल आया था|

निहाल: आये थे स्विमिंग के लिए, किया थियेटर?

मानव: हाँ, स्विमिंग करते हुए मुझे समझ में आया मैं क्या कर रहा हूँ| (हँसते हुए) अपनी लाइफ पानी में डूबा रहा हूँ|

निहाल: और दूबे जी के साथ भोपाल में काम किया?

मानव: उनके साथ तो बम्बई में आ कर- 98 में|

निहाल: आपने दुबे जी के अलावा किसके साथ काम किया?

मानव: सुनील शानबाग, विनोद रंगनाथ, पता नहीं किसके साथ| बम्बई में जो थे सबके साथ कर लिया... 2003 तक... मकरंद देशपांडे|

निहाल: और दूबे जी को आपने छोड़ दिया था कह कर कि वो अच्छा नहीं लिखते?

मानव: हाँ, खराब लिखते थे|

निहाल: वो अपना नाटक खुद लिखते थे?

मानव: हाँ, बाद में लिखने लगे थे| अच्छा नहीं लिख पाते थे| वो असल में रायटर थे नहीं|

निहाल: लेकिन आपको काफी पसंद थे ना| आप तो हमेशा ज़िक्र करते हैं उनका|

मानव: अरे, बहुत अच्छे आदमी थे, बहुत अच्छे| मतलब डाइरेक्टर तो बहुत ही अच्छे थे| लेकिन वही बात है, वो डाइरेक्टर थे, राइटर नहीं थे|

निहाल: आप जब एक्टिंग के बारे में समझाते है, जैसा हमें भी काफी कुछ समझाया था सच और झूठ के बारे में एक्टिंग में, तो खुद से एवोल्व किया, या किसी का बहुत असर रहा?

मानव: देख, आप जब एक्टिंग करते हो ना तो धीरे-धीरे चीज़ें समझ आने लगती हैं| प्रोफेशन है ना| जैसे डॉक्टर को पता लग जाता है कुछ साल बाद कि ऐसे करना है वैसे करना है| पहला ऑपरेशन वो खराब ही करेगा| दूसरे-तीसरे से ठीक करने लगेगा| बस ऐसा ही यार| अब लोग बोलते हैं कि तुम इतना लिख लेते हो, दूसरी फिल्म तुरंत लिख दी| अब प्रॉब्लम ये है कि मैं कुछ और करता नहीं हूँ भाई| मैं कोई जॉब थोड़े ही कर रहा हूँ और बीच में आकर लिख देता हूँ| मैं और कुछ भी नहीं करता| मेरे पास इतना टाइम है, पढ़ता रहता हूँ, लिख लेता हूँ|

सोनापानी फिल्म फेस्टिवल में आये सभी साथी|
फिल्म फेस्टिवल 21 सितम्बर से 23  सितम्बर, 2012
को हिमालयन विलेज, सोनापानी में आयोजित किया गया था|

Hindi cinema has not been able to do what Marathi or Tamil cinema is doing: Sriram Raghavan

Sriram, reading a book on Binayak Sen by Minnie Vaid 

Ace Film director and writer, Sriram Raghavan, was at Sonapani Film Festival held in Sonapani village in Uttarakhand from 21^st September 2012 to 23^rd September 2012. This interview was taken on the last day of the festival over a cup of tea.

Nihal: You have been in the industry for a very long time. In this festival we saw your films of various ranges, starting from your first film which you made at FTII as a student. Now that you have made mainstream commercial movies, what major difference you find in your own filmmaking, and also in your understanding of filmmaking in general?

Sriram: I don’t see much difference because whatever I am doing, I am doing for an audience. Ab wo audience kitna bada hai, kitna chota hai depends on the film. But sometimes when the film is too expensive you have to think about the audience, which is sometimes good and sometimes it can work the other way round because you are doing something so that more people can understand and get access to the film. But I don’t see much difference in my approach. I do what I want to do.

Nihal: Your approach has been commendable. We have seen ‘Eight column affair’ (Sriram’s diploma film), ‘Raaman Raghav’ and ‘Johnny Gaddar’. After watching your films, I personally felt your initial films were much more cerebral when compared with your later films, especially Agent Vinod.

Sriram: That was intentional. Agent Vinod was for a different audience, for children especially. That is why the violence was very simple, in fact minimal. If you see spy movies, they have crazy torture scenes and violence. Agent Vinod was more like fun. Many people expected it to be like Johnny Gaddar. That went against the movie. People expect your latest work like the last movie. And my diploma film (Eight Column Affair) was not cerebral. That time we were making it for the students. It was fun. Socha ki masti karenge. And that time we had just seen French new wave and exciting world cinema, which was new for us. So it was more in that spirit.

Nihal: In our film industry, apart from your original work, do you see something new happening?

Sriram: I think in the last three-four years there are many things happening in the Hindi cinema. I enjoy films by Anurag and Dibakar. There are different kinds of stories being told. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not work, but at least there is a chance these movies are getting. It is of very different taste from what the mainstream use to be fifteen years back. I find this very exciting. But we have still not been able to do what Marathi cinema has done, what Tamil cinema is doing. There we have managed to get a breakthrough, getting regular audience to watch those films. Hindi cinema has a star driven mainstream cinema, and ‘another’ cinema. But both are coming together now. Actor like Ranbir Kapoor working with Anurag Basu becomes very interesting thing to look forward.

Nihal: What do you have to say to the young breed which is not only coming to film industry but pursuing their career in creative art form? Any suggestions for them?

Sriram: I have no suggestions (Laughs). I am also one of them. I am also looking for the path. I have no advice for sure.

Nihal: You have been through all this, have struggled like most of the young people today. You have been a student yourself, trained in filmmaking. Many people are not trained. Do you think training important for young people?

Sriram: Training is when you start making film. When you make a song, for instance he (points to Vipin Hero) makes songs. The main thing is the response he gets, the feedback he gets. That is the real place to learn. Otherwise it cannot be taught beyond a point. People can teach the technicalities, but after that you will discover your own path, know what you are good at and know you weaknesses. That confusion, that excitement, that question mark will always be there, even after making ten films.

Nihal: How was your time at FTII? You had your share of fun there.

Sriram: Ab to main ye sab sochta bhi nahi. Everything was fun at its time, and then you move on. One thinks I wish I had written more script at FTII, had done this and that at FTII. Lots of time gets wasted because we use to enjoy ourselves too much, that is also important, but… At FTII we also use to discuss a lot.

Nihal: Which actor you love to work most with or want to work with?

Sriram: Many of them. It depends on the story. Sometimes you want to work with somebody hence you write keeping that person in mind. But it is not necessary that person is also ready to work with you. So you must write as you want to write and then look for actors. Whoever I am working with is my favourite actor.

Nihal: But your script never felt like it was written for a specific person. For instance Johnny Gaddar was a wonderfully written script.

Sriram: Yes, once the script comes then the casting comes. Ulta nahi hota. Ulta kabhi kabhi hota hai.

Nihal: But many people work that way…

Sriram: Many people do, even I have done. But that is not the best way to go.

Nihal: We met at this small intimate Sonapani Film Festival. What do you have to say about this kind of initiative?

Sriram: Aisa hi hona chahiye sab festival! Because here it is one to one. I want to come next time just to sit, watch films and ask questions. When people ask question, it is fun. But I want to come and relax here. Aaunga, pakka aaunga abhi!

The participants of Sonapani Film Festival (September 2012)

Nihal: When you attend major film festivals around the globe, what is that you find missing?

Sriram: We are not able to spend time with the audience. There you already have a big audience. When you go to Oscian or any other hindi film festival, it becomes much larger thing. We have a press conference, we have a QnA session. Wo sab hota hai. But here you actually make some friends. Which is fab. I met 20-25 new people, which is a good beginning point.


This interview also appeared in My Theatre Cafe on July 22, 2013
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